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 Let's talk abot the new rules.

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Genki
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PostSubject: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 2:42 am

Hi Guys:

I hate the rule that they took out one step sequence too. It may hurt Dai.

However, I am more disappointed that they did not do anything about downgrade, GOE, PCS


As everybody knows there are so many incidents like Mirai at US nationals that many thought that she won, but surprize, surprize, she did not, because of severe downgrade. Severely punishing almost perfect jumping by naked eyes makes many skaters to avoid difficult jumps such as Quads and triple Axel, leading to the serious regression of the this sports. It is equally bothering that the criteria of the technical controler were so inconsistent and unreliable.(Remember Mao's Axcel all ratified in Olympics and 2 were downgraded at worlds right after.) It should not be the major factor to decide the result of important competitions such as worlds and Olympic winner.

Re GOE and PCS, I have noticed that they have been often used to raise the points of the favorite skarters chosen judges.

Placement of Yuna KIm in long over Asada at worlds and over scoring of Patrick chan at Olympic may be the good examples.

Especially, I am disturbed that Yuna's 3/3 is almost always scored much higher than Mao's 3A/2t combo because of her 2+ goe. The current system was developed to decrease Judge's subjectivity as much as possible, however I can not deny that it has been going to the other directions with incredible speed.

I can not deny my feeling that PCS these days has been used to classify skaters even before the comps.
Good examples are Kozuka and Johnny's unbelievably low placement in long in Olympics. Kozuka as well as Johnny are third skaters in there own countries. So no matter how well they skates, they are already classified accordingly by judges.

Under this system, the winner is not necessarily the best skater, but the skater who can manage risks well and knows how to increase GOE potentials. You know who I am talking about-It's Even and Yuna.

These days, I often watch Yagudin and Plushy videos with sigh, thinking how we can go back to the golden age of figure skating
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Leode
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 9:36 am

Hi, Genki. Thanks for making a topic.
I'm just wondering, are these new rules alredy announced by ISU in public?

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malo42
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 11:47 am

I'm kind of confused because I'm not familiar with these things, is the step sequence rule something that will happen for sure or is it something that is just proposed and could be turned down? If so, I hope it's turned down because I really hate it.

I agree with Genki about the under-rotated jumps, something needs to be done so that skaters don't lose so many points for very slightly under rotating a jump because it's really silly.

However about GOE and PCS, I actually like them a lot and I think they'd be very good if the judges would just use them in the correct way! Mad It's very nice when a skater gets the PCS they deserve, but really disappointing when they don't. Jobert has better skating skills than Kozuka, really? Rolling Eyes I'm very bothered that judges use them to hold up skaters but it's really not like it was any better under 6.0 either. I just don't think there are any rules they could put in place to make this better, they need to start doing something about the judges.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 1:24 pm

Hello. It`s my first post here.
I think that THEY are preparing crown for Patrick Chan. ^ ^ with these rules.
I`ve never been much interested in figure scating, espesially in men`s single scate. But Dai`s performances, full of power yet grace & beauty proved me that I was wrong. : )
He trully deserved Gold in Olympics. Lucky Evan is, that Dai did that unsuccessful quad in FS.
Sorry for my English, it`s not my native language.
I`m registered, because I`m just curious about one question. Why Dai always wears training clothes with PUMA logo? He has a contract with Puma in Japan or smth like that?
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 5:56 pm

malo42 wrote:
I'm kind of confused because I'm not familiar with these things, is the step sequence rule something that will happen for sure or is it something that is just proposed and could be turned down? If so, I hope it's turned down because I really hate it.
These are all proposals that have to be approved at the ISU Congress in Barcelona next month.

I read somewhere that some rules will be voted on by the Congress (=each ISU member has one vote, I think) and others by the Technical Committees (not sure what they are and who gets to vote). I don't know who is in charge for the specific rules related to program contents (ie. the step sequences, 2 quads/3A in the SP, 1.1 factor on the combos and jumps after 2mn in the SP, spins, etc.).

The whole agenda is here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1859
Some rules are about figure skating, others about speed skating, and others about both.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 9:08 pm

Welcome to DTFF, malo42 and Lil!
Thank you for the information, MissC.
I see, all new rules will be announced after the congress next month. I believe that Daisuke and his team can handle this no matter what the rules are changed.

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Genki
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Wed May 05, 2010 11:23 pm

Hi:
I just want to add that these proposals were made by ISU Technical Committees, not by individual nations or a few ISU members. If nobody objects to them, it will most likely pass.

I heard somewhere that recommendations by ISU technical committees are pretty much done deal.

Again, why didn't they do anything about downgrade issue

Really makes me nuts!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Thu May 06, 2010 1:57 pm

MissC wrote:
The whole agenda is here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1859
202 pages!! Shocked I'm sorry I don't have enough patience to read it. What a Face

Genki wrote:
I just want to add that these proposals were made by ISU Technical Committees, not by individual nations or a few ISU members. If nobody objects to them, it will most likely pass.
I think some of those agendas are often voted down in the congress, aren't they? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

My opinions.... Neutral
I especially don't like the idea, only one step sequence in men's SP. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
As for two different quads, I think anyone hardly can do it practically. A set of clean 2 kinds of quads (one quad combo) and 3A in SP is a kind of dream, isn't it? Rolling Eyes

I don't have good idea about UR issue.. Neutral UR is UR so it has to be called. (And sorry to say though, some of Mirai's URs were rather obvious URs..) But technical controlers to have such strong power on scoring these days and inconsistency of them are problematic, I think. No No

I don't know this is in the agenda but I really hope ISU will stop using anonymity in judging. Neutral


Just out of my curiosity Cool , I calculated these based on WC SP result. I did it very roughly so I'm sorry if there are mistakes. Neutral

<Only one step sequence in SP.>

Daisuke TAKAHASHI
3F+3T 9.50 1.00 10.50
3A 8.20 1.60 9.80
3Lz 6.00 1.00 7.00
CCoSp4 3.50 0.40 3.90
CiSt4 3.90 2.00 5.90
FSSp3 2.60 0.30 2.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
TES 43.30
PCS 41.9
TSS 85.20

Brian JOUBERT
4T+3T 13.80 0.20 14.00
3A 8.20 1.40 9.60
3Lz 6.00 1.40 7.40
FSSp4 3.00 0.40 3.40
CCoSp3 3.00 0.40 3.40
SlSt3 3.30 0.60 3.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
45.00
39.8
84.80

But if Dai-chan failed to get level 4 on step sequence, he would lose to Brian.

Daisuke TAKAHASHI
3F+3T 9.50 1.00 10.50
3A 8.20 1.60 9.80
3Lz 6.00 1.00 7.00
CCoSp4 3.50 0.40 3.90
SlSt3 3.30 0.80 4.10
FSSp3 2.60 0.30 2.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
41.50
41.9
83.40

<Two quads and one step sequence in SP >

Brian JOUBERT
4T+3T 13.80 0.20 14.00
3A 8.20 1.40 9.60
4S 10.30 0.00 10.30
FSSp4 3.00 0.40 3.40
CCoSp3 3.00 0.40 3.40
SlSt3 3.30 0.60 3.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
47.90
39.8
87.70

Kevin REYNOLDS
4S+3T 14.30 0.60 14.90
3A 8.20 0.00 8.20
4T 9.80 0.00 9.80
FSSp4 3.00 0.00 3.00
CSSp4 3.00 0.10 3.10
SlSt3 3.30 0.50 3.80
CCoSp4 3.50 0.60 4.10
46.90
33.3
80.20

Though I think these are unrealistic as I wrote above, Dai-chan needs 4T+3T to go over Brian.

Daisuke TAKAHASHI
4T+3T 13.80 0.00 13.80
3A 8.20 1.60 9.80
3Lz 6.00 1.00 7.00
CCoSp4 3.50 0.40 3.90
CiSt4 3.90 2.00 5.90
FSSp3 2.60 0.30 2.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
46.60
41.9
88.50

If he failed to get level4 on step sequence, he would lose to Brian even if he landed 4T+3T.

Daisuke TAKAHASHI
4T+3T 13.80 0.00 13.80
3A 8.20 1.60 9.80
3Lz 6.00 1.00 7.00
CCoSp4 3.50 0.40 3.90
SlSt3 3.30 0.80 4.10
FSSp3 2.60 0.30 2.90
CSSp4 3.00 0.30 3.30
44.80
41.9
86.70

Anyway Dai-chan wouldn't lose to Kevin Reynolds even if he landed 4S-3T, 3A and 4T. PCS is such a big matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Thu May 06, 2010 7:36 pm

miyu wrote:
A set of clean 2 kinds of quads (one quad combo) and 3A in SP is a kind of dream, isn't it? Rolling Eyes

I've been thinking. According to the current rules, one of the jumps in SP needs to be done out of steps. If this requirement stays, I don't think either Reynolds nor Joubert are going for that second quad.
---------------------------------------------------------
ETA:

I'm looking at the tables with new scale of values:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1862

and I'm rather liking them, as far as 4F goes. A 1/4 - 1/2 underrotated 4F will be worth 8,6 points from now on. With an eventual 2f and a -2GOE applied, it's worth 6,6. The 3F BV is 5,3.

Not to mention the BV of a perfectly done 4F, which is 12,3.

I'd say go for it, Daisuke! bounce

For comparison, the old SOVs:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Fri May 07, 2010 5:03 am

GOEs have changed too. The'll be factored, for example, a +1 for a 2A will be worth 0.5 only, while a quad will get the actual 1pt. This is good, considering that a 2A and a quad can't get the same GOEs cause they've got different levels of difficulty.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Fri May 07, 2010 7:06 am

Thank you for letting us know about ISU Communication 1611, hsuhs! Very Happy Very Happy
It has been already determined, right? Rolling Eyes

Genki! Very Happy Very Happy ISU gave you a solution for UR and DG! Good. Cool Razz Are you satisfied with their answer? IMO it's a a good change, thought it's a bit complicated.

So from now UR and DG are different. GOEs were changed rather largely. I like new -GOEs on quads. (I didn't understand why ISU applied such a naughty -GOE on them before. Evil or Very Mad )
And it's interesting to see ISU changed BVs on some jumps too. (ex: slightly higher BV on 3T/3Lo and lower BV on 3S/3F ) Rolling Eyes

I have a question.
What is "Choreo Step Seq."?
Is this the no-level step sequence which we found in the agenda? If so, does it mean some part of the agenda has been already determined? Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Sat May 08, 2010 1:17 am

miyu wrote:



Genki! Very Happy Very Happy ISU gave you a solution for UR and DG! Good. Cool Razz Are you satisfied with their answer? IMO it's a a good change, thought it's a bit complicated.


Yes, I am definitely happier, but not exactly satisfied, because
1. Unreliability of technical controller is not addressed. If the UR is almost invisible, to the extent of leading to the last year's schizophrenic judging-namely some URed jumps were rewarded with + GOE, why the punishment?
Rather, why not change the criteria of DG to more than 1/2, so that just obvious DG is punished. If some judges still suspect UR, they can use GOE.

2. Under this new rule, DG is communicated to judges. They were not this season. So it will dampen the effect of fewer point deduction.

However, I am very happy that they changed the factor of GOE.
I used to cringe to the fact that 2a with +3 goe is equal to triple luz

This is definitely the first step to the right direction.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk abot the new rules.   Sat May 08, 2010 3:18 am

miyu wrote:
What is "Choreo Step Seq."?
Is this the no-level step sequence which we found in the agenda? If so, does it mean some part of the agenda has been already determined? Rolling Eyes
I think "Choreo Step Seqs." are identified the point of GOE, however, I don't know how can we use them in the program yet. I can imagine it's really hard for the choreographers to make a program next season according to the new rules. I don't worry about Daisuke. He has a nice footwork. Sometimes he was very cautious in all his steps due to get the level, so I hope the new rules will make enjoying himself to step more.

Genki wrote:
However, I am very happy that they changed the factor of GOE.
I used to cringe to the fact that 2a with +3 goe is equal to triple luz
Me, too. I found the good chart about jumps for the new rules at the skating web site which was introduced by miyu before. It's very useful chart. Daisuke has no reason to avoid 4F.

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