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 Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?

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UMgal
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PostSubject: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:59 pm

Hi, everyone. This topic has been bothering me for a while and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. I just want to get some stimulating analysis on this.

Is Daisuke's new "Romeo and Juliet" LP too conservative compared to his "Swan Lake" SP and could this hurt him from achieving his ultimate goal in big competitions like Worlds? For example Daisuke lost in the Grand Prix Final in the LP on PCS scores to Stephane Lambiel who is superb with the artistic aspects, and I believe that when Brian Joubert is fully healthy and returns, his high technical ability (quads and such) will make it tough to compete with them.

We all know that Daisuke is of course a complete skater with BOTH wonderful artistic and technical skills, but do innovative programs such as "Swan Lake" or "Bacherlorette" show this off better than more traditional, classical programs like "Romeo Juliet?" At the end I just want Daisuke to show off his very best using whatever vehicle it is.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Once again I hope this is not too controversial to bring up.


Last edited by on Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:03 am; edited 7 times in total
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anne-marie
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:54 pm

Hi!
I don't think that Romeo and Juliet will hurt him because of conservative skating. But I am not a specialist. Certainly Romeo and Juliet is more a program of competition (technically strong) than Bachelorette. I am pretty sure: it should not be a good idea to switch them.
This season, I love Swan Lake, but (sorry!) I am not attracted by Romeo and Juliet. The music is beautiful, and we can expect a beautiful program from it. The program Morozov created is very difficult; it requires too much energy, and it seems to me, that there is a lack in choerography.
For exemple, I loved Moulin Rouge, and Phantom of Opera, which were more artistic.
I don't understand the new free program. I don't know if Daisuke will change a part of it or keep it until the Worlds.
But, anyway, the free program is consistant, and he can win without obtaining the best score in artistic matter!
UMgal, speaking is good. We share ideas!!!
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Shatterpoint
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:50 am

I think that Romeo and Juliet is a fine LP. It'll get better over the next couple competitions I think. It's nice music, and I think he performs it well.
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UMgal
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:37 am

Thank you so much anne-marie for encouraging me to speak my mind! flower I love Daisuke and appreciate many of the other skaters as well so my intention is not to bash any of them at all. Each skater has his own strengths/weaknesses and programs that we like or don't like so I think that it's interesting to discuss and analyze the reasons for these things.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:47 am

Although I don't like his LP as much as his SP, it's still enjoyable. In that vein, I don't think it's too conservative. I think that the two contrasting programs do show off his versatility very well. It shows that he can pull off something innovative as well as something very classic. I agree with anne-marie that Bachelorette should stay an exhibition program. It would have to be stripped of the lyrics and I don't think it would cut very well for competition.
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UMgal
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:16 am

Hi, thanks for your replies shatterpoint and swandie! I just brought this topic up because I'm very sad/disappointed that Daisuke lost in the Grand Prix Final LP because of a lower PCS score (he did have little jumping errors too of course). Your comments make a lot of sense and make me feel more encouraged however! Very Happy
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miyu
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:50 pm

Thank you UMgal to make this intresting thread. Very Happy Very Happy
I agree with anne-marie. The conservative itself won't hurt him. Very Happy

Fisrt of all, I think, Stephane's Poeta is an exceptionally well-choreographed program. The program has strong power of own artistry. I was amazed how they put all elements in it without losing its artistic aspect. When Stephane(superb artistist) skate Poeta it is unlikely to be beated by Dai-chan as well as any skaters in PCS.
So Dai-chan has to overcome Stephane in TES. Neutral Neutral
(But I think Stepane will change his Lp next season and I'm not sure he can get another Poeta then.)

Even though it might be the reason Morozov made such a technically difficult program R&J, sometimes I can't help feeling "bit busy" when I see it. (I like R&J though........ ) If I may say. it seemed so far Dai-chan couldn't show fully his expression ablility. He looked a bit obsessed to do so many difficult elemants . So it might effect to PCS. scratch scratch
Dai-chan looked enjoying himself more when he skated Bachelorette or HipHop. bounce bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:05 pm

If he does a perfect LP including 2 quads it isn't conservative. But he is playing it safe at the moment with only one quad. But he can still win with the one quad.
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anne-marie
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:29 am

By 'conservative", UMgall means classic program, compared to a gala exhibition. Not a person who does not take risks and skates conservatively.
I agree with Miyu when she says: "Even though it might be the reason Morozov made such a technically difficult program R&J, sometimes I can't help feeling "bit busy" when I see it. (I like R&J though........ ) If I may say. it seemed so far Dai-chan couldn't show fully his expression ablility. He looked a bit obsessed to do so many difficult elemants . So it might effect to PCS.'
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UMgal
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:57 am

Hello miyu and Momoko. By the way, Happy Birthday miyu!! Very Happy I love you flower

You guys have made some very interesting comments. You're right first of all that Stephane's LP really stands out artistically this year (no one can beat him in PCS in the LP this year) just as Daisuke's SP does as well I believe. I also agree that Daisuke can win with only one quad but it would be safer with two. For example Daisuke always got lower PCS scores in the past than Brian Joubert in the same competitions (even though he didn't deserve to I believe) because Brian landed more quads (Daisuke's landing one quad could help change this but landing two will help even more so).

In all honesty, I think that "Romeo and Juliet" is a wonderful program with its own touching moments that does indeed showcase Daisuke's dual artistic and technical capabilities very well. More importantly his execution and talent allow him to carry off this and many other kinds of programs to an extremely high standard. However, so far I've noticed that this LP has received lower PCS scores than Stephane's "Poeta" LP for example and at times Daisuke's own "Phantom of the Opera" LP from last year (using his highest scores at last year's NHK and Worlds only). I think this may have to do with the fact that this program as miyu said (with its technical demands perhaps or the choreography or whatever) restrains him in a bit from being as free or as expressive as he could be at certain points and it is a more traditional style unlike the "Swan Lake" SP with super unique movements and choreography that really glare out or stick out at you.

However due to the factors that I and several other posters stated above, it is obvious that with the LP that Daisuke has right now, he will have to try to overcome Lambiel and Joubert both on TES solidly with no PCS buffer if everyone is clean (we haven't even seen Nobunari Oda's programs yet) which makes me worried and concerned/scared too. I tend to think and worry too much. It's a bad character trait. Ha ha ha.

Only in a perfect world (or my dreams), can Daisuke be a perfect champion in terms of both PCS and TES scores. pale This is maybe a very harsh and unreasonable demand from me, I know. He's already so incredibly amazing and gifted at both. I love you

What is for sure is that there will be quite a battle ahead indeed at Worlds amongst all the top men and may all the skaters who skate the best win!! Go go go Daisuke, I'm sure that he will be ready for this challenge that is up ahead!!! Very Happy Very Happy

Very sorry for the long post everyone and I hope it makes sense! Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:14 pm

Thank you UMgal!! Embarassed Embarassed I hope you are enjoying your holidays! Very Happy Razz

UMgal wrote:
In all honesty, I think that "Romeo and Juliet" is a wonderful program with its own touching moments that does indeed showcase Daisuke's dual artistic and technical capabilities very well.
I really agree with you. Very nicely said! cheers cheers

I know we have to move on forward but one more thing.
Don't you think Dai-chan's face expressions were richer in Phantom than R&J????? His arm movements during transitions were the same, I think. (I especially liked the one after 3Lo. Embarassed ) It might effect on PCS? What do you think?? Question Question

He said he wants to express the music itself by his body this season. On the other hand (I think) he said he had a story in his mind to perform Phantom last season.
To experess just the world of the music would be very difficult. (like modern ballet?) And he said he wants to skate more refreshingly to R&J but in fact the program is very dense. Further more he also has to do it with doing a lot of difficult elements. Maybe incredibly high standard, isn't it?!
It's just the middle of season. I believe he will show us his ideal performance of R&J at Worlds. cheers cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:28 pm

Very interesting topic!

I think that the contrast between Romeo and Juliet to Swan Lake is a good thing rather than a bad one - just because it shows how versatile Daisuke is for sure. There are some elements of R & J that are beautifully done - his arm and hand motions especially. But I do love Phantom of the Opera much more. When I think about it, though, he took awhile to get Phantom to the level it was by end of season. So I just don't think he has perfected his performance of R & J yet and I'm looking forward to seeing how it finally turns out.

What will REALLY be interesting will be next year. Dai has completely set the bar high on short programs now on a new level. Not just to do the necessary elements, but to entertain and completely stand out. Makes me wonder what other skaters will try to do to catch up.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:32 pm

Hi miyu and Carol! My holiday is indeed going very well thank you. Very Happy I definitely feel much more rested now after working very hard and being busy for a while.

And thank you guys very much for saying that this topic is interesting! I used to not be good at always evaluating the performances of my favorite skaters objectively enough and this lead me to experience some big disapointments, so now I really try very hard to be as objective and realistic about the skaters that I like!

Daisuke's "Phantom of the Opera" program was a classic, amazing/majestic program that was powerful, fluid, elegant or soft, dramatic, and intense all at the same time which you don't usually see so much in men's figure skating. On the other hand "Romeo and Juliet" has many of these elements as well, however perhaps to a bit lighter/muted or currently less developed extent. I agree with you miyu, Daisuke's facial expressions were really expressive and moving/intense in "Phantom of the Opera," as Daisuke really related to the music and was telling a story as you mentioned. He really "felt" and let out the emotion of the program. But as miyu and Carol say, we have yet to see the very best and biggest improvements yet from Daisuke in the "Romeo and Juliet" program so it could very well catch up to "Phantom" in the points that I mentioned above. There's definitely promise ahead. Very Happy

Quote :
What will REALLY be interesting will be next year. Dai has completely set the bar high on short programs now on a new level. Not just to do the necessary elements, but to entertain and completely stand out. Makes me wonder what other skaters will try to do to catch up.

So true Carol! I would also love to see what Daisuke will do next year to bring it up in the SP and the LP both! Perhaps he will do a tango, broadway, Rock n' Roll, African dance (he he), or waltz (solo ballroom if possible like Yuna's SP) theme. The possibilities are endless and I can't wait to see what he and Morosov bring out with their creativity and talents!
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PostSubject: Re: Is Daisuke's LP too conservative compared to the SP?   Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:06 pm

This is very interesting topic, thanks, UMgal.

As you know I love Daisuke's program "Romeo and Juliet" because I've always hoping to see this, however, I don't know why this one uses same part of tune for Cist and SlSt exactly. I think this program needs more slow part that he can express his feeling based on the young lover's tragedy story like his former program "Phantom of Opera". But I know it's not possible to add more slow part to this because of hard jumping components.

Overall, this program needs a totally concepts and should have some preconceived idea of what Daisuke wants to express to audience. That's why he lost in the Grand Prix Final in the LP on PCS scores to Stephane Lambiel's.

I was impressed that Daisuke did 2 quads in this program, but I didn't see his program that he performed completely yet. So, I hope to see it at 4CC and Worlds 2008!!

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